Episode 46 highlights – Nick Finck podcast about leadership, career progression, hiring & job hunting in UX:

• The difference between leadership and management in UX
• Being a UX mentor and coach
• Expectations and differences between junior, mid level and senior UX practitioners
• What it takes to be a great UX professional
• Myths about hiring and working with a junior UX person
• Tips for job hunting, applications and interviewing
• Things hiring managers are looking for in UX candidates
• Career progression for UX designers and researchers

Links from this episode:

• https://www.craftandrigor.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickfinck/
• https://nickfinck.com/

Episode Transcript

(this transcript was automatically created using our very own transcription feature in Aurelius and has been minimally edited, please excuse any typos or weirdness 😀 )

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This is the Aurelius podcast episode 46 with Nick Finck. I’m Zack Naylor co-founder at Aurelius and your host for the Aurelius podcast where we discuss all things ux research and product in this episode. We have Nick Fink aux professional. Who as he puts. It has done a little bit of everything. Nick has been around for a long time and has a ton of really impressive experience and thoughts to share. He’s particularly passionate about mentoring and coaching other ux professionals and teams, Nick and I
This is the Aurelius podcast episode 46 with Nick Fink. I’m Zack Naylor co-founder at Aurelius and your host for the Aurelius podcast where we discuss all things ux research and product in this episode. We have Nick Fink aux professional. Who as he puts. It has done a little bit of everything. Nick has been around for a long time and has a ton of really impressive experience and thoughts to share. He’s particularly passionate about mentoring and coaching other ux professionals and teams, Nick and I
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I talked about a range of things like the difference between leadership and management in ux growing your career how to interview well and land a job and so much more. It was a very good conversation and Nick shared a lot of his insights from his experience over the years. The Aurelius podcast is brought to you by Aurelius the powerful research repository and insights platform. Aurelius is an all-in-one space for researchers to organize notes capture insights analyze data and share outcomes with your
I talked about a range of things like the difference between leadership and management in ux growing your career how to interview well and land a job and so much more. It was a very good conversation and Nick shared a lot of his insights from his experience over the years. The Aurelius podcast is brought to you by Aurelius the powerful research repository and insights platform. Aurelius is an all-in-one space for researchers to organize notes capture insights analyze data and share outcomes with your

We recently announced two of our biggest features yet Aurelius now offers transcriptions and the automatic report Builder. You can add any audio or video recording and have notes created for you automatically. Then Aurelius automatically creates a report with every key insight and recommendation from your project which you can then edit design and share with anyone right from Aurelius. Check us out at Aurelius lab.com. That’s a you re L IU s la
We recently announced two of our biggest features yet Aurelius now offers transcriptions and the automatic report Builder. You can add any audio or video recording and have notes created for you automatically. Then Aurelius automatically creates a report with every key insight and recommendation from your project which you can then edit design and share with anyone right from Aurelius. Check us out at Aurelius lab.com. That’s a you re L IU s la
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B.com. Okay, let’s get to it. Hey, Nick. Hey, how’s it going? I’m pretty good. It’s one of the holiday weeks when we’re recording this. So for folks listening after the fact, I think most of us are kind of taking it easy, but Nick and I are gonna have a chat today. Yeah, it’s been great all day a little bit of a weird one, but a great one. Yeah, it definitely did feel a little bit different. I think at least for me for reasons that I didn’t expect so not the obvious stuff like you couldn’t get together, but just different in other ways. Yeah. We just hit that to your mark with our son. And so we’re
B.com. Okay, let’s get to it. Hey, Nick. Hey, how’s it going? I’m pretty good. It’s one of the holiday weeks when we’re recording this. So for folks listening after the fact, I think most of us are kind of taking it easy, but Nick and I are gonna have a chat today. Yeah, it’s been great all day a little bit of a weird one, but a great one. Yeah, it definitely did feel a little bit different. I think at least for me for reasons that I didn’t expect so not the obvious stuff like you couldn’t get together, but just different in other ways. Yeah. We just hit that to your mark with our son. And so we’re
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going through that like one like the whole Santa Claus thing and it’s kind of like now more understood and into the whole family tradition because you know, we’re a fairly new family. So we are realizing like last year. We felt like we have any tradition in this year. We feel like we do that was was kind of great to just kind of realize like, oh my gosh, we have created Traditions. These are what we do now and I think the whole circumstance of the of the pandemic and all that has kind of like shed more light on the fact that we actually have Traditions with the larger family, too.
going through that like one like the whole Santa Claus thing and it’s kind of like now more understood and into the whole family tradition because you know, we’re a fairly new family. So we are realizing like last year. We felt like we have any tradition in this year. We feel like we do that was was kind of great to just kind of realize like, oh my gosh, we have created Traditions. These are what we do now and I think the whole circumstance of the of the pandemic and all that has kind of like shed more light on the fact that we actually have Traditions with the larger family, too.
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Yeah, no, that’s cool. Yeah, I agree. I experiences similar thing. But in any event, I appreciate you taking the time during our down time to have a chat and be a guest on our show and typically kick things off, you know with just asking for anybody listening who may not know who you are. Maybe you know introduce yourself give a little bit of background the work that you do things that you’re passionate about. So I would describe myself as ux professional. I know that’s kind of like a vague statement, but my kind of done a little bit of everything in my career my been going at this for about 24 years long.
Yeah, no, that’s cool. Yeah, I agree. I experiences similar thing. But in any event, I appreciate you taking the time during our down time to have a chat and be a guest on our show and typically kick things off, you know with just asking for anybody listening who may not know who you are. Maybe you know introduce yourself give a little bit of background the work that you do things that you’re passionate about. So I would describe myself as ux professional. I know that’s kind of like a vague statement, but my kind of done a little bit of everything in my career my been going at this for about 24 years long.
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And since before we called it, ux before information architecture was even saying really just starting out, you know doing web design web development, of course CSS even existed. If you can imagine that some kind of an old-timer in that regard, I’ve been managing teams for about 14 years. So I’ve been kind of in leadership roles managing managers and large organizations for bigger companies as well as agencies. Yeah. I’ve been doing it for a long time. One of the things I’ve always done is mentoring. So mentoring has been kind of near and dear to my heart and I’ve been recently taking
And since before we called it, ux before information architecture was even saying really just starting out, you know doing web design web development, of course CSS even existed. If you can imagine that some kind of an old-timer in that regard, I’ve been managing teams for about 14 years. So I’ve been kind of in leadership roles managing managers and large organizations for bigger companies as well as agencies. Yeah. I’ve been doing it for a long time. One of the things I’ve always done is mentoring. So mentoring has been kind of near and dear to my heart and I’ve been recently taking
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Big leap into jumping into mentoring full-time and providing sort of coaching / mentoring services in kind of fun to do kind of get to know people and just see them succeed in the career transition a lot of people transition into the field of course, but yeah, I worked at a number of companies probably the largest organization was organization of 33 at AWS Amazon web services. And then I also headed up a design team for platform at Facebook. I’ve been a teacher at boot camp called General Assembly also run my own
Big leap into jumping into mentoring full-time and providing sort of coaching / mentoring services in kind of fun to do kind of get to know people and just see them succeed in the career transition a lot of people transition into the field of course, but yeah, I worked at a number of companies probably the largest organization was organization of 33 at AWS Amazon web services. And then I also headed up a design team for platform at Facebook. I’ve been a teacher at boot camp called General Assembly also run my own
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own business blue flavor for many years and work at different agencies like project to go to Blink ux o handful of other things. I’m sure you could probably just like look online and find out about but you know, I think one of the things that I’ve always kind of focused on is just that sort of the people aspects of what we do as designers how we operate as designers how we hire designers. How do we trained designers? How do we grow designers once they’re on our teams that sort of stuff that’s been kind of like hyper Focus lately. Yeah.
own business blue flavor for many years and work at different agencies like project to go to Blink ux o handful of other things. I’m sure you could probably just like look online and find out about but you know, I think one of the things that I’ve always kind of focused on is just that sort of the people aspects of what we do as designers how we operate as designers how we hire designers. How do we trained designers? How do we grow designers once they’re on our teams that sort of stuff that’s been kind of like hyper Focus lately. Yeah.
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Super cool, you know one of the things that I always really appreciate it if for folks who’ve been in the industry a long time, I think we all tend to start out wanting to at least do or try all the things that you X might Encompass we tend to get, you know, at least a little bit better at certain aspects of it. Are we are we tend to have a natural inclination towards those one of the things that’s really interesting to me is to see for folks who have been in the industry for a long while the thing for them. So for you you’ve mentioned it it’s sort of the people in the growing aspect of it. And so for other people it’s operations.
Super cool, you know one of the things that I always really appreciate it if for folks who’ve been in the industry a long time, I think we all tend to start out wanting to at least do or try all the things that you X might Encompass we tend to get, you know, at least a little bit better at certain aspects of it. Are we are we tend to have a natural inclination towards those one of the things that’s really interesting to me is to see for folks who have been in the industry for a long while the thing for them. So for you you’ve mentioned it it’s sort of the people in the growing aspect of it. And so for other people it’s operations.
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For other people it’s still maybe being a practitioner and that’s what they love to do. And then for others, you know, it’s just it’s like parts of the business and stuff like that and how it relates. It’s just always really fascinating to me with somebody who has such a broad and depth of experience to see you know, what’s the thing that really fuels them because doing the work is no longer that big of a challenge for you not to do that. You’ve done that successfully for a long time. And so here’s the thing that you’re really passionate about right? I’m kind of curious. You know, what led you there right? Like, where did you start to realize people and making designers?
For other people it’s still maybe being a practitioner and that’s what they love to do. And then for others, you know, it’s just it’s like parts of the business and stuff like that and how it relates. It’s just always really fascinating to me with somebody who has such a broad and depth of experience to see you know, what’s the thing that really fuels them because doing the work is no longer that big of a challenge for you not to do that. You’ve done that successfully for a long time. And so here’s the thing that you’re really passionate about right? I’m kind of curious. You know, what led you there right? Like, where did you start to realize people and making designers?
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People get in and be successful as ux and research folks. How did that latch on for you? I mean, it’s always something I’ve done as kind of like on the side not part of my job not, you know dedicated work hours for it or anything like that or expectations in a roll, you know, it’s just kind of something. I’ve always done. I ran digital web for about 10 years, which is online publication to help people learn about basically web design web development. And then we started as ux and IA started becoming things we started covering those topics. So I saw
People get in and be successful as ux and research folks. How did that latch on for you? I mean, it’s always something I’ve done as kind of like on the side not part of my job not, you know dedicated work hours for it or anything like that or expectations in a roll, you know, it’s just kind of something. I’ve always done. I ran digital web for about 10 years, which is online publication to help people learn about basically web design web development. And then we started as ux and IA started becoming things we started covering those topics. So I saw
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A lot of folks that are trying to learn this stuff through these articles and online resources and stuff. When I started out there really wasn’t that stuff right? There wasn’t Publications even things like as early back is a list of part was it wasn’t a thing until later in my career. Right? And it was maybe a Riley books, but they’re all technical. I remember the O’Reilly pocket guide where it was everything. You need to know about HTML on a like a little brochure, which is pretty amazing. So there’s a lot of that kind of
A lot of folks that are trying to learn this stuff through these articles and online resources and stuff. When I started out there really wasn’t that stuff right? There wasn’t Publications even things like as early back is a list of part was it wasn’t a thing until later in my career. Right? And it was maybe a Riley books, but they’re all technical. I remember the O’Reilly pocket guide where it was everything. You need to know about HTML on a like a little brochure, which is pretty amazing. So there’s a lot of that kind of
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Off that like the learning part of it and then as I went through my career, I kind of realized that like, I’ve kind of done a little bit everything. I’ve worked, you know in-house at tech companies that were big. I’ve worked at agencies. I freelanced. I ran my own business. I’ve done volunteer projects. I’ve you know started a non-profit for a while, you know, like all these kinds of things in and people really appreciated the vice, you know be able to give like my experiences and share my experiences with them and they could take away something from
Off that like the learning part of it and then as I went through my career, I kind of realized that like, I’ve kind of done a little bit everything. I’ve worked, you know in-house at tech companies that were big. I’ve worked at agencies. I freelanced. I ran my own business. I’ve done volunteer projects. I’ve you know started a non-profit for a while, you know, like all these kinds of things in and people really appreciated the vice, you know be able to give like my experiences and share my experiences with them and they could take away something from
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Um that and in the one-on-one mentoring situations. It’s like I find a lot of that, you know knowledge that. I have can be applied into that sort of space for more coaching purposes. So, you know, I kind of found that like people were My Thing Once, you know, I had built teams at Uber mind which became Deloitte digital and then AWS and then Facebook and kind of after that I was like, well what if I could kind of make this thing that’s sort of on the side that I do in my evening hours for free.
Um that and in the one-on-one mentoring situations. It’s like I find a lot of that, you know knowledge that. I have can be applied into that sort of space for more coaching purposes. So, you know, I kind of found that like people were My Thing Once, you know, I had built teams at Uber mind which became Deloitte digital and then AWS and then Facebook and kind of after that I was like, well what if I could kind of make this thing that’s sort of on the side that I do in my evening hours for free.
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Or whatever and in the kind of make it more of my sort of central to my work and you know at that time the way I thought about it was well what if I did teaching and that’s what got me into teaching the boot camp which you know was it was a learning experience. It was kind of interesting kind of working under a different curriculum created by a different organization. A lot of that. I refined and kind of built up to kind of be more well-rounded for what I would call like the modern designer the modern researcher and we did have grads from those programs that
Or whatever and in the kind of make it more of my sort of central to my work and you know at that time the way I thought about it was well what if I did teaching and that’s what got me into teaching the boot camp which you know was it was a learning experience. It was kind of interesting kind of working under a different curriculum created by a different organization. A lot of that. I refined and kind of built up to kind of be more well-rounded for what I would call like the modern designer the modern researcher and we did have grads from those programs that
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I did go on to design and research specifically whether was product design or ux design that kind of education thing was pretty helpful. And then prior to that I had worked with web standards curriculum project where we developed an open source curriculum for information architecture. So all this kind of stuff kind of just sort of like, you know came in at kind of an apex point where all that sort of thing together 18 helping people my background in some level of education. But again, I was also self-taught right having kind of been through all that and being able to share that
I did go on to design and research specifically whether was product design or ux design that kind of education thing was pretty helpful. And then prior to that I had worked with web standards curriculum project where we developed an open source curriculum for information architecture. So all this kind of stuff kind of just sort of like, you know came in at kind of an apex point where all that sort of thing together 18 helping people my background in some level of education. But again, I was also self-taught right having kind of been through all that and being able to share that
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and in realizing like a lot of people like wanted my time and the biggest challenge I had was well, my time was dedicated to my job most of it and then you know now with a family and all that, you know, my after-hours are kind of limited basically mentoring was always that thing that was like sort of first to go to the back burner almost I mean not first but like do you prioritize compared to like making a paycheck and all this kind of stuff sure and you know, so that’s kind of what led me to like formalizing that you know, now if mentoring becomes the same as Sidelines because
and in realizing like a lot of people like wanted my time and the biggest challenge I had was well, my time was dedicated to my job most of it and then you know now with a family and all that, you know, my after-hours are kind of limited basically mentoring was always that thing that was like sort of first to go to the back burner almost I mean not first but like do you prioritize compared to like making a paycheck and all this kind of stuff sure and you know, so that’s kind of what led me to like formalizing that you know, now if mentoring becomes the same as Sidelines because
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As you know, I have to pay rent and whenever pay my mortgage or whatever, you know, then how do I make it you know something that can kind of support me but I also continue to support other folks other than kind of like focusing back on my job and kind of giving it only partial attention. I’m kind of one of those people I guess that I believe they’re sort of like one thing that you can focus on at a time really, you know, this goes into even like the management left. If you have like player-coach being a coach as a manager and helping the team or a manager that is a player that has to do
As you know, I have to pay rent and whenever pay my mortgage or whatever, you know, then how do I make it you know something that can kind of support me but I also continue to support other folks other than kind of like focusing back on my job and kind of giving it only partial attention. I’m kind of one of those people I guess that I believe they’re sort of like one thing that you can focus on at a time really, you know, this goes into even like the management left. If you have like player-coach being a coach as a manager and helping the team or a manager that is a player that has to do
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Fine stuff you end up being like kind of good at one or the other. It’s really hard to be really great at both. And so I kind of felt like the balance between me and mentoring and me and being a design manager was kind of at odds with each other in some ways, even though that should be part of the role, right? Yeah. That’s that’s such an interesting point that last thing you said because even before this we were sort of chatting offline and you mention Fred who we had on the show several episodes back and you know, he’s in a design Ops role in the way. He described it. You know, I
Fine stuff you end up being like kind of good at one or the other. It’s really hard to be really great at both. And so I kind of felt like the balance between me and mentoring and me and being a design manager was kind of at odds with each other in some ways, even though that should be part of the role, right? Yeah. That’s that’s such an interesting point that last thing you said because even before this we were sort of chatting offline and you mention Fred who we had on the show several episodes back and you know, he’s in a design Ops role in the way. He described it. You know, I
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Ask him how would you give a definition to it? Because it’s still pretty new. Right? And he actually said design Ops is designed leadership without all the bullshit is what is how he described it because it’s basically what you just said, right like he got a chance to focus on the people in the development of the practice and making sure that happened really smooth and that’s the thing that he’s passionate about and it kind of sounds like that’s what happened to you. But especially even more like a mentorship of the people which you know, you could be very very rewarding for sure and just to say I can relate that, you know, I didn’t go to school for this.
Ask him how would you give a definition to it? Because it’s still pretty new. Right? And he actually said design Ops is designed leadership without all the bullshit is what is how he described it because it’s basically what you just said, right like he got a chance to focus on the people in the development of the practice and making sure that happened really smooth and that’s the thing that he’s passionate about and it kind of sounds like that’s what happened to you. But especially even more like a mentorship of the people which you know, you could be very very rewarding for sure and just to say I can relate that, you know, I didn’t go to school for this.
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Like we write we read books from other people who did this and we thought hey, these people were pretty smart. We think they know what they’re doing. Let’s all share this stuff and it can be very rewarding to it just to get that I was going to ask you though, like with the mentorship stuff. I mean you see a lot of this now, especially that you’re focusing on it full-time or nearly full time. What are the things that you feel like everybody should just know getting into ux getting into ux research before they even asked you the question cuz I’m sure you hear, you know, some of these all the time. Yeah, I think one of the
Like we write we read books from other people who did this and we thought hey, these people were pretty smart. We think they know what they’re doing. Let’s all share this stuff and it can be very rewarding to it just to get that I was going to ask you though, like with the mentorship stuff. I mean you see a lot of this now, especially that you’re focusing on it full-time or nearly full time. What are the things that you feel like everybody should just know getting into ux getting into ux research before they even asked you the question cuz I’m sure you hear, you know, some of these all the time. Yeah, I think one of the
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things that I kind of see is few acts and this is not unique to ux is just if you’re going to get into a field you need to be passionate about it. You need to be dedicated to it. You need to have drive for it got to have that personal inertia that no matter how many times you get kicked down taking a stand back up and get on your feet and keep going right and I see so many folks that get into ux because they think oh, you know Tech pays a lot. So I need to get intact and then they look at all the roles and Tack and it
things that I kind of see is few acts and this is not unique to ux is just if you’re going to get into a field you need to be passionate about it. You need to be dedicated to it. You need to have drive for it got to have that personal inertia that no matter how many times you get kicked down taking a stand back up and get on your feet and keep going right and I see so many folks that get into ux because they think oh, you know Tech pays a lot. So I need to get intact and then they look at all the roles and Tack and it
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maybe I could do this ux stuff this seems pretty straightforward I just push a bunch of pixels around on a screen or something right and you know and they get into it for all the wrong reasons right and they don’t give it their all they try and then when they run into a wall the First wall they either find a way around it over it under it find support to get around it or it’s go back to what they were doing right I think there’s this perception and I will fault our one our own industry for it as well as efforts
maybe I could do this ux stuff this seems pretty straightforward I just push a bunch of pixels around on a screen or something right and you know and they get into it for all the wrong reasons right and they don’t give it their all they try and then when they run into a wall the First wall they either find a way around it over it under it find support to get around it or it’s go back to what they were doing right I think there’s this perception and I will fault our one our own industry for it as well as efforts
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that have framed it in such a way I don’t know if it’s like marketing or product people are business owners that it’s just like getting rich quick scheme you know like yeah oh just you know go to school for a week and then like you’ll know everything you need to know and it make a whole crapload of money and that’s all there is to life well unlike I’ve been at this for enough years to know that money is not everything to its hard work the market is so oversaturated with Junior level Talent right now it’s in fact it’s a huge problem there is
that have framed it in such a way I don’t know if it’s like marketing or product people are business owners that it’s just like getting rich quick scheme you know like yeah oh just you know go to school for a week and then like you’ll know everything you need to know and it make a whole crapload of money and that’s all there is to life well unlike I’ve been at this for enough years to know that money is not everything to its hard work the market is so oversaturated with Junior level Talent right now it’s in fact it’s a huge problem there is
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Gap with hiring for junior Talent or like, you know, every like 10 rolls or something like that. You might see a mid-level role. There’s like almost never a junior roll posted. Yeah, you know and when it says Junior you read it and the fine print it says, oh five years of experience which to me personally is a mid-level not a junior level but you know, whatever and there’s this these barriers these challenges and it makes it really hard for anybody in this pool of people coming out of universities bootcamp self-taught, you know, whatever Arlene
Gap with hiring for junior Talent or like, you know, every like 10 rolls or something like that. You might see a mid-level role. There’s like almost never a junior roll posted. Yeah, you know and when it says Junior you read it and the fine print it says, oh five years of experience which to me personally is a mid-level not a junior level but you know, whatever and there’s this these barriers these challenges and it makes it really hard for anybody in this pool of people coming out of universities bootcamp self-taught, you know, whatever Arlene
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from other design kind of like experience and applying that into the field of ux they’re struggling right, you know, and they look at it as there must be something wrong with me. And the reality is there’s something wrong with our feel right and that Gap we have in our field is this notion that oh, well if I bring a senior designer, they’ll be a better performer. I won’t have to teach him anything. They’ll just kind of like hit the ground running, you know, and that’s like a very big myth right for example at AWS highly technical space. We were hiring designers.
from other design kind of like experience and applying that into the field of ux they’re struggling right, you know, and they look at it as there must be something wrong with me. And the reality is there’s something wrong with our feel right and that Gap we have in our field is this notion that oh, well if I bring a senior designer, they’ll be a better performer. I won’t have to teach him anything. They’ll just kind of like hit the ground running, you know, and that’s like a very big myth right for example at AWS highly technical space. We were hiring designers.
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Mostly designers who understood what a WSU has want to be in you AWS. We brought them into had a one-year ramp. That’s a senior level designer. I’m a year to get confident in these products and the teams that were assigned to be able to in a meeting with the GM say hey, maybe there’s a better way to approach this on some particular thing until then it was kind of like, oh, I better not speak up because I don’t know this space enough kind of getting their bearings, right it takes a lot to ramp up and even the most senior
Mostly designers who understood what a WSU has want to be in you AWS. We brought them into had a one-year ramp. That’s a senior level designer. I’m a year to get confident in these products and the teams that were assigned to be able to in a meeting with the GM say hey, maybe there’s a better way to approach this on some particular thing until then it was kind of like, oh, I better not speak up because I don’t know this space enough kind of getting their bearings, right it takes a lot to ramp up and even the most senior
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skilled Talent isn’t going to ramp necessarily fast. The other thing is senior Talent needs assistance in some ways and that they might need reassurance depend on where they’re at in their career. They might need just interesting projects. There might be a lot of Team Dynamics to deal with than all these other kind of baggage that comes with just people right Junior designers are no different. The only thing that’s different about Junior designers is they want to learn they know they don’t know everything they want they’re eager to impress and they need a little bit of guidance. Yeah.
skilled Talent isn’t going to ramp necessarily fast. The other thing is senior Talent needs assistance in some ways and that they might need reassurance depend on where they’re at in their career. They might need just interesting projects. There might be a lot of Team Dynamics to deal with than all these other kind of baggage that comes with just people right Junior designers are no different. The only thing that’s different about Junior designers is they want to learn they know they don’t know everything they want they’re eager to impress and they need a little bit of guidance. Yeah.
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And what we instead run into is this inability to hire Junior Talent. So the senior Talent we find in some of these companies are overextended and when you look at why they’re overextend it’s because they are literally doing these like really basic things that totally a junior designer could do that could absolutely be delegated to a junior designer and in free up their time to focus on these big picture bigger problems kind of stuff but instead they’re in the trenches doing like, you know, a thousand wireframe variations of a screening for all the different states or
And what we instead run into is this inability to hire Junior Talent. So the senior Talent we find in some of these companies are overextended and when you look at why they’re overextend it’s because they are literally doing these like really basic things that totally a junior designer could do that could absolutely be delegated to a junior designer and in free up their time to focus on these big picture bigger problems kind of stuff but instead they’re in the trenches doing like, you know, a thousand wireframe variations of a screening for all the different states or
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Never or a prototype or whatever they’re doing and meanwhile the teams are just chugging along and just moving forward almost without right so we have this kind of experience Gap where we run willing to hire and invest the time and effort into mentoring and coaching Junior designers. But Meanwhile, we’re okay with herning our senior designers into these workhorses that are just cranking out work and you know, maybe it’s because they ask less questions when they’re really busy like that. But unfortunately we need a lot of questions to be asked. We’re at a state and Technology where there’s a
Never or a prototype or whatever they’re doing and meanwhile the teams are just chugging along and just moving forward almost without right so we have this kind of experience Gap where we run willing to hire and invest the time and effort into mentoring and coaching Junior designers. But Meanwhile, we’re okay with herning our senior designers into these workhorses that are just cranking out work and you know, maybe it’s because they ask less questions when they’re really busy like that. But unfortunately we need a lot of questions to be asked. We’re at a state and Technology where there’s a
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Stuff that shipping that like runs into ethical issues runs into racial issues running runs into all these kinds of things that discriminate isolate or what we’ve still Market. They should you know, like people with impairments and things like that that isn’t even being considered because the designers just happen to crank out work to catch up to you said are basically incentivize to shift fast. So yeah, that’s a huge thing. That’s like the big problem. This is I’m paraphrasing my keynote talk here. Pretty much. Is that experience Gap in terms of
Stuff that shipping that like runs into ethical issues runs into racial issues running runs into all these kinds of things that discriminate isolate or what we’ve still Market. They should you know, like people with impairments and things like that that isn’t even being considered because the designers just happen to crank out work to catch up to you said are basically incentivize to shift fast. So yeah, that’s a huge thing. That’s like the big problem. This is I’m paraphrasing my keynote talk here. Pretty much. Is that experience Gap in terms of
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Of Education knowledge and levels of experience. Yeah. I really appreciate that just to kind of distill some things that I took away from that too. And even maybe add some of my own lived experience is a lot of times you lose senior designers because they’re not fulfilled and they’re not being challenged in what you just described as one of the huge reasons why is because they’re doing things that to them feels like commoditized now somebody needs to do that work. But like as you said Junior designers can actually be a great fit for that and it helps get their feet wet and really the experience that they need.
Of Education knowledge and levels of experience. Yeah. I really appreciate that just to kind of distill some things that I took away from that too. And even maybe add some of my own lived experience is a lot of times you lose senior designers because they’re not fulfilled and they’re not being challenged in what you just described as one of the huge reasons why is because they’re doing things that to them feels like commoditized now somebody needs to do that work. But like as you said Junior designers can actually be a great fit for that and it helps get their feet wet and really the experience that they need.
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You know, the other thing that I took away from that reminds me something I always tell people which is I can teach anybody how to design where do research it’s teaching someone the right thing to design or in your case. Maybe the right questions to ask in the right things to be thinking about that only really comes with experience. You can teach that but that cost you a lot more money and it takes you a lot more time. So you’re almost better off allowing those people right? So then you can solve this problem with the senior practitioners to free up the time and space to a not only do the work that be fulfilling.
You know, the other thing that I took away from that reminds me something I always tell people which is I can teach anybody how to design where do research it’s teaching someone the right thing to design or in your case. Maybe the right questions to ask in the right things to be thinking about that only really comes with experience. You can teach that but that cost you a lot more money and it takes you a lot more time. So you’re almost better off allowing those people right? So then you can solve this problem with the senior practitioners to free up the time and space to a not only do the work that be fulfilling.
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To them, but then be covered this ground that you’re not covering because there’s too many swinging Hammers and Nails all the time. Yeah, and you know a lot of people I talk to and ask them, you know, when I ask them a fire managers and people that sort of like however like when I asked him like Hey, well, how come you haven’t hired any Junior designers, you know one it’s like organizational. They haven’t been granted headcount to do it. You know, they don’t have good like ramps into junior levels, like for example internship programs or basically they themselves don’t have the bandwidth.
To them, but then be covered this ground that you’re not covering because there’s too many swinging Hammers and Nails all the time. Yeah, and you know a lot of people I talk to and ask them, you know, when I ask them a fire managers and people that sort of like however like when I asked him like Hey, well, how come you haven’t hired any Junior designers, you know one it’s like organizational. They haven’t been granted headcount to do it. You know, they don’t have good like ramps into junior levels, like for example internship programs or basically they themselves don’t have the bandwidth.
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Support a junior designer and you know one of the first things that I kind of unravel for them is this notion that the manager needs to be the sole person to help aid and guide a junior designer. And when you look at like you could it’s kind of interesting because you could go inside as some of these big tech companies and they have these things like they basically whether you calm career matrixes or are leveling guides or whatever career paths tracks Etc basically describes the different levels of designers, you know, Junior mid senior Etc when you look at the senior level designers
Support a junior designer and you know one of the first things that I kind of unravel for them is this notion that the manager needs to be the sole person to help aid and guide a junior designer. And when you look at like you could it’s kind of interesting because you could go inside as some of these big tech companies and they have these things like they basically whether you calm career matrixes or are leveling guides or whatever career paths tracks Etc basically describes the different levels of designers, you know, Junior mid senior Etc when you look at the senior level designers
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There’s almost always something in there about growing others, like helping other designers get better at their craft. And if I look at the reviews that I’ve seen of other managers saying, oh why this person that’s senior needs a promotion to principal or whatever, you know, and I look at that that particular bullet point. It’s almost always kind of like just the wash. They’re like, yeah this person kind of like help on this one little thing and it’s like no no did they take a junior designer under their wing? Did they help grow that person and solidify them in their role or
There’s almost always something in there about growing others, like helping other designers get better at their craft. And if I look at the reviews that I’ve seen of other managers saying, oh why this person that’s senior needs a promotion to principal or whatever, you know, and I look at that that particular bullet point. It’s almost always kind of like just the wash. They’re like, yeah this person kind of like help on this one little thing and it’s like no no did they take a junior designer under their wing? Did they help grow that person and solidify them in their role or
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up them of you know build their skills and Elevate to the next level, you know, whatever might be and that should be baked into our job expectations as especially at the senior level, you know, mid you can argue whether like, they’re they have enough experience to be able to like mentor and that sort of stuff and guide but you know, the other thing is a lot of people have this notion of like what a junior designer is like, you know, how much knowledge they have how much ability they have only tell you I had a team of
up them of you know build their skills and Elevate to the next level, you know, whatever might be and that should be baked into our job expectations as especially at the senior level, you know, mid you can argue whether like, they’re they have enough experience to be able to like mentor and that sort of stuff and guide but you know, the other thing is a lot of people have this notion of like what a junior designer is like, you know, how much knowledge they have how much ability they have only tell you I had a team of
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Of 24 directs. I know that’s insane. Never have that many Direct by the way. I had a team of 24 directs. We were looking at building internship program. We ended up hiring this one in turn and this in turn it was it was so amazing one, you know, like a all things are talked about eager always wanting to impress, you know, all these kinds of things and some of those can be faults, you know, like you can over-index on things like that. Right? But the thing was is this junior designer actually started running circles around my senior level designers they started out.
Of 24 directs. I know that’s insane. Never have that many Direct by the way. I had a team of 24 directs. We were looking at building internship program. We ended up hiring this one in turn and this in turn it was it was so amazing one, you know, like a all things are talked about eager always wanting to impress, you know, all these kinds of things and some of those can be faults, you know, like you can over-index on things like that. Right? But the thing was is this junior designer actually started running circles around my senior level designers they started out.
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Forming my senior designer that they started taking on more scope and responsibility than even my senior designers had now I look back right now. They had a career beyond that that company of course and did some great things and now they are managing an entire design team inside another organization. It hasn’t been that many years, you know, so this expectation of oh a junior designer is just somebody who doesn’t know how to do anything and we have to teach them everything. You know, it’s like is totally a myth like yes, you have to find the right candidates for the job. But like it’s
Forming my senior designer that they started taking on more scope and responsibility than even my senior designers had now I look back right now. They had a career beyond that that company of course and did some great things and now they are managing an entire design team inside another organization. It hasn’t been that many years, you know, so this expectation of oh a junior designer is just somebody who doesn’t know how to do anything and we have to teach them everything. You know, it’s like is totally a myth like yes, you have to find the right candidates for the job. But like it’s
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Not as much hard work if you get the right people in that or not, just looking for a paycheck but actually want to grow totally totally well. So what you just said there is like the perfect encapsulation of everything that led up to it and you mentioned that earlier where you know, this isn’t really a career that’s great to walk into and make a bunch of money for a few years and then go do something else with your life. Right? I mean if I think the people who are most successful in ux or research or product strategy or any of that stuff, they’re people who just really give a damn and that’s not something you can put on.
Not as much hard work if you get the right people in that or not, just looking for a paycheck but actually want to grow totally totally well. So what you just said there is like the perfect encapsulation of everything that led up to it and you mentioned that earlier where you know, this isn’t really a career that’s great to walk into and make a bunch of money for a few years and then go do something else with your life. Right? I mean if I think the people who are most successful in ux or research or product strategy or any of that stuff, they’re people who just really give a damn and that’s not something you can put on.
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Resume and that kind of goes back to where I was mentioning. Like I can teach you the mechanics. I can teach you the tools to do design and research that doesn’t matter all that much. If you don’t care about the output of that right? I completely agree. It’s a really interesting thing and also very hard, but if you can find the person who look you’ve got the skills enough, right we can help you with that that’s easy. But if you can find the person who really really cares about what they do and this is like the perfect situation also cares about the subject matter of your organization.
Resume and that kind of goes back to where I was mentioning. Like I can teach you the mechanics. I can teach you the tools to do design and research that doesn’t matter all that much. If you don’t care about the output of that right? I completely agree. It’s a really interesting thing and also very hard, but if you can find the person who look you’ve got the skills enough, right we can help you with that that’s easy. But if you can find the person who really really cares about what they do and this is like the perfect situation also cares about the subject matter of your organization.
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That person will they’ll take off all they need is the opportunity if people from all walks of life come into ux and become very very successful in spite of formal training, right all of us did we didn’t go to school for this stuff when we when we first started. Yeah. I mean, you know you talked about like, you know people who care about the area that the teen what the team is doing the product that space. I mean, I look back at AWS if they didn’t understand what AWS was we wouldn’t hire them. We might hire them for some, you know other role inside of Amazon because when
That person will they’ll take off all they need is the opportunity if people from all walks of life come into ux and become very very successful in spite of formal training, right all of us did we didn’t go to school for this stuff when we when we first started. Yeah. I mean, you know you talked about like, you know people who care about the area that the teen what the team is doing the product that space. I mean, I look back at AWS if they didn’t understand what AWS was we wouldn’t hire them. We might hire them for some, you know other role inside of Amazon because when
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You interview actually interview for Amazon not you’re interviewing the candidate for a role at Amazon not for necessarily a role on your team. What we found the best success was, you know, when people came in and they knew what AWS was maybe they didn’t necessarily use it because they weren’t necessarily the target audience. But you know, they had enough familiarity they knew how to talk to it at least and they positioned what you know case studies they presented, you know, based on that right versus the candy comes in that literally is taking the shotgun approach to job hunting right there like applying a
You interview actually interview for Amazon not you’re interviewing the candidate for a role at Amazon not for necessarily a role on your team. What we found the best success was, you know, when people came in and they knew what AWS was maybe they didn’t necessarily use it because they weren’t necessarily the target audience. But you know, they had enough familiarity they knew how to talk to it at least and they positioned what you know case studies they presented, you know, based on that right versus the candy comes in that literally is taking the shotgun approach to job hunting right there like applying a
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a thousand job postings every day just to see if there’s going to be a bite and they are looking at from a statistical standpoint. Right and they’re like, oh somebody’s gonna buy it was like, yeah, so I’m just going to buy it and you’re going to waste a lot of their time because you’re not going to know why you’re interviewing there. You’re not going to know anything about the company and meanwhile the company is going to see right through that, right? Yeah, and we’ve had a lot of people that interviewed they might do something about Amazon all why do you want to you know work here at AWS? Oh, you know, I really love the the Kindle Fire. I love like the e-commerce experience and
a thousand job postings every day just to see if there’s going to be a bite and they are looking at from a statistical standpoint. Right and they’re like, oh somebody’s gonna buy it was like, yeah, so I’m just going to buy it and you’re going to waste a lot of their time because you’re not going to know why you’re interviewing there. You’re not going to know anything about the company and meanwhile the company is going to see right through that, right? Yeah, and we’ve had a lot of people that interviewed they might do something about Amazon all why do you want to you know work here at AWS? Oh, you know, I really love the the Kindle Fire. I love like the e-commerce experience and
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Okay, this division has nothing to do with any of that or at least very little to do with any of that. You know, it was very clear and very obvious to us and those candidates kind of came in that way and that’s the one thing. I think a lot of people that are job hunting right now if you’re listening right now and you’re like damn I am struggling to get a job in this field. Why is this so hard one? It’s not you because the field is oversaturated of junior level talent to it’s because you’re probably taking a broad approach when you need to think about what are the three companies? I feel I could work for not like their dream company because maybe you’re not ready yet, right.
Okay, this division has nothing to do with any of that or at least very little to do with any of that. You know, it was very clear and very obvious to us and those candidates kind of came in that way and that’s the one thing. I think a lot of people that are job hunting right now if you’re listening right now and you’re like damn I am struggling to get a job in this field. Why is this so hard one? It’s not you because the field is oversaturated of junior level talent to it’s because you’re probably taking a broad approach when you need to think about what are the three companies? I feel I could work for not like their dream company because maybe you’re not ready yet, right.
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Right, you’re just getting into the field. You know, you’re not going to necessarily be at that like epic point in your career where you’re going to walk right in the door to some epic Mission, but for a junior level position, what are the kind of companies you want to work for and then like fine like five or so companies that like our yeah. I totally want to be there. I’m passionate about that what they’re doing there and then learn about them even more than you already do and then apply, you know, but you also have to have your kind of foot in the door. You already have to know people in there and that gets back to the making Network, you know networking and making connections.
Right, you’re just getting into the field. You know, you’re not going to necessarily be at that like epic point in your career where you’re going to walk right in the door to some epic Mission, but for a junior level position, what are the kind of companies you want to work for and then like fine like five or so companies that like our yeah. I totally want to be there. I’m passionate about that what they’re doing there and then learn about them even more than you already do and then apply, you know, but you also have to have your kind of foot in the door. You already have to know people in there and that gets back to the making Network, you know networking and making connections.
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This building your you know, sort of rapport with people on the inside so that maybe you could get a referral, you know versus just like walking in the door as a blind applicant, right? Yeah that pretty much almost guarantees. You you won’t get a call back, right? Yeah, you know versus like, you know a few people in there they referred you in they haven’t worked with you maybe but they know about you they have maybe had a few virtual copies with you. They get your mindset. They understand, you know about design and you’re passionate about it and you know why this company
This building your you know, sort of rapport with people on the inside so that maybe you could get a referral, you know versus just like walking in the door as a blind applicant, right? Yeah that pretty much almost guarantees. You you won’t get a call back, right? Yeah, you know versus like, you know a few people in there they referred you in they haven’t worked with you maybe but they know about you they have maybe had a few virtual copies with you. They get your mindset. They understand, you know about design and you’re passionate about it and you know why this company
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Is the company for you then that’s where the referral comes in, right? Totally. I very very strongly cosine that advice particularly about being passionate about the company and learning about that because it just sets you so far apart from anybody else who might be applying for that. But but more importantly it sets yourself up for Success not just in getting the job but like doing something fulfilling right? I get the same kind of advice to folks. It doesn’t matter of all Stripes Ray jr. Or not when they say, you know, I’m just trying to figure out what I want to do next or what.
Is the company for you then that’s where the referral comes in, right? Totally. I very very strongly cosine that advice particularly about being passionate about the company and learning about that because it just sets you so far apart from anybody else who might be applying for that. But but more importantly it sets yourself up for Success not just in getting the job but like doing something fulfilling right? I get the same kind of advice to folks. It doesn’t matter of all Stripes Ray jr. Or not when they say, you know, I’m just trying to figure out what I want to do next or what.
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Should do or how to get a job. I always say what do you want to do? Don’t tell me you X like what do you care about as a person because because what we do in u.s. Can be applied to all these different kind of Industries. Some are like technology already have a bunch of us doing it some not and then what I tell people is it’s your job to then help them. See how what you do can help further their mission, whatever that might be. You know, it might be very businesslike a nature might be very, you know, organic and sort of Social and Civic in nature and it kind of doesn’t matter but like figure out what you really care about and then yeah show people
Should do or how to get a job. I always say what do you want to do? Don’t tell me you X like what do you care about as a person because because what we do in u.s. Can be applied to all these different kind of Industries. Some are like technology already have a bunch of us doing it some not and then what I tell people is it’s your job to then help them. See how what you do can help further their mission, whatever that might be. You know, it might be very businesslike a nature might be very, you know, organic and sort of Social and Civic in nature and it kind of doesn’t matter but like figure out what you really care about and then yeah show people
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How you do your thing can help them do better and and then also in that right? So it’s like two parts right? Learn a lot or at least get very clear on what you care about. But then also be honest with yourself on what are you really good at in ux? Is it design? Is it research is it strategy? Is it communication and mentoring right and then find find that too because like you said the shotgun approach. It doesn’t actually do anybody any good a more most especially you as the candidate because you might get in a job revising wireframes all day and maybe you hate that right like maybe you don’t actually
How you do your thing can help them do better and and then also in that right? So it’s like two parts right? Learn a lot or at least get very clear on what you care about. But then also be honest with yourself on what are you really good at in ux? Is it design? Is it research is it strategy? Is it communication and mentoring right and then find find that too because like you said the shotgun approach. It doesn’t actually do anybody any good a more most especially you as the candidate because you might get in a job revising wireframes all day and maybe you hate that right like maybe you don’t actually
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Doing design. Yeah, and you know and that kind of goes into another point is just like when you don’t get the job that’s a hit to this whole right? Like you just like you get that rejection letter. It’s very automated very boilerplate. Usually at first glance. It might seem like it’s just totally boilerplate there might actually be pieces of feedback in there. Like we went with a more experienced candidate sounds very boilerplate, but maybe that’s what actually happened. The other thing is, you know, having talked about that team that I managed at AWS. So that was a team of 33 my group from 6 to
Doing design. Yeah, and you know and that kind of goes into another point is just like when you don’t get the job that’s a hit to this whole right? Like you just like you get that rejection letter. It’s very automated very boilerplate. Usually at first glance. It might seem like it’s just totally boilerplate there might actually be pieces of feedback in there. Like we went with a more experienced candidate sounds very boilerplate, but maybe that’s what actually happened. The other thing is, you know, having talked about that team that I managed at AWS. So that was a team of 33 my group from 6 to
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233 in about three months that was it on of interviewing and hiring what I learned from that experience was sometimes the people that are like like the best ux designers may not get a job on your team and and it’s not because like there’s some sort of deficiency with them. It’s sometimes there’s a deficiency with the job. That’s the to basically fulfill what they’re trying to accomplish in their careers, you know, so like I’ve seen these talented designers. Oh man, I designed you know, whatever. You know, I used to say
233 in about three months that was it on of interviewing and hiring what I learned from that experience was sometimes the people that are like like the best ux designers may not get a job on your team and and it’s not because like there’s some sort of deficiency with them. It’s sometimes there’s a deficiency with the job. That’s the to basically fulfill what they’re trying to accomplish in their careers, you know, so like I’ve seen these talented designers. Oh man, I designed you know, whatever. You know, I used to say
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And I guess that’s not the case anymore. But like, you know, all these different kind of consumer high-end, you know websites and stuff and then they would apply to like AWS and they might even know something about ews. It might be a great designer. But like it’s like man you are going to hate this job. You’re gonna hate being here because it’s nothing like any of that stuff and what you said, you’re like passionate about you’re not really going to touch much here, you know, you know, yeah, I could hire you. Yeah, you could do the job and that would be great and but how many months it’s almost like a timers take it down before you
And I guess that’s not the case anymore. But like, you know, all these different kind of consumer high-end, you know websites and stuff and then they would apply to like AWS and they might even know something about ews. It might be a great designer. But like it’s like man you are going to hate this job. You’re gonna hate being here because it’s nothing like any of that stuff and what you said, you’re like passionate about you’re not really going to touch much here, you know, you know, yeah, I could hire you. Yeah, you could do the job and that would be great and but how many months it’s almost like a timers take it down before you
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you either transfer to another team because you could do that after about a year at ABS or at anywhere name. So I think if they’re all see still the same today, but they could transfer or they could just leave you know, and and find something more suitable for what they want to do. Right? So I don’t want to be just stepping stone for somebody. I mean, I don’t want to be stepping stone if it elevates them, but if it just moved them laterally to just a different company like that’s not the right job for you know, you know, it’s okay to be like somebody who’s like I know I don’t want to be a senior designer and I’m just be mid for you know the rest of my career cool.
you either transfer to another team because you could do that after about a year at ABS or at anywhere name. So I think if they’re all see still the same today, but they could transfer or they could just leave you know, and and find something more suitable for what they want to do. Right? So I don’t want to be just stepping stone for somebody. I mean, I don’t want to be stepping stone if it elevates them, but if it just moved them laterally to just a different company like that’s not the right job for you know, you know, it’s okay to be like somebody who’s like I know I don’t want to be a senior designer and I’m just be mid for you know the rest of my career cool.
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tell me about that how can I help support that right there’s also something to be said about you know a lot of folks tend to want to like level up and a lot of folks will like level up sort of like it’s the Peter Principle right they level up to like the point of incompetence right so they want to be a senior because they know it pays more they finally get to senior wool and then the reviews keep coming back saying you’re not performing or not doing what we’re expecting which is the worst way to hear about this kind of feedback you know ideally a manager has worked with you and you know your deficiencies and you know where you’re not cutting it and they’ve been
tell me about that how can I help support that right there’s also something to be said about you know a lot of folks tend to want to like level up and a lot of folks will like level up sort of like it’s the Peter Principle right they level up to like the point of incompetence right so they want to be a senior because they know it pays more they finally get to senior wool and then the reviews keep coming back saying you’re not performing or not doing what we’re expecting which is the worst way to hear about this kind of feedback you know ideally a manager has worked with you and you know your deficiencies and you know where you’re not cutting it and they’ve been
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I’m trying to work with you and helping provide resources so that you could grow in those gaps right not just saying hey here’s your deficiencies go figure it out but actually like aiding them with that right and that’s that’s another thing about like design management just it’s just false so short like I mean I’ve unfortunately had the experience where there’s been a lot of ads like hey you know here’s the thing work on that go figure it out you know it’s like okay great this is my goes into like my ethos of I don’t necessarily believe Nan design manager should be managing design works
I’m trying to work with you and helping provide resources so that you could grow in those gaps right not just saying hey here’s your deficiencies go figure it out but actually like aiding them with that right and that’s that’s another thing about like design management just it’s just false so short like I mean I’ve unfortunately had the experience where there’s been a lot of ads like hey you know here’s the thing work on that go figure it out you know it’s like okay great this is my goes into like my ethos of I don’t necessarily believe Nan design manager should be managing design works
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you know so that that notion of oh I worked in you know some other division of other thing and now I’m going to just made people how hard could it be and I seen I’ve seen BPS just tumbled down on this kind of stuff right like the move into VP of design role and in when a design question comes up with the CEO and all the c-level executives in the room and you’re sitting in a room and that VP of designs in there and they look like it could be somebody else to answer hmm like no more the head of design it’s your job to answer this you should know enough about the stuff you know
you know so that that notion of oh I worked in you know some other division of other thing and now I’m going to just made people how hard could it be and I seen I’ve seen BPS just tumbled down on this kind of stuff right like the move into VP of design role and in when a design question comes up with the CEO and all the c-level executives in the room and you’re sitting in a room and that VP of designs in there and they look like it could be somebody else to answer hmm like no more the head of design it’s your job to answer this you should know enough about the stuff you know
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absolutely I think we over index on it I think there is this notion of design and managers need to have portfolios which is like okay well I’ve been doing design management for 14 years so you’re looking for work that’s 14 years old and then there’s sometimes like feedback like well we want you know to hear your case studies or project succeeds and you know things that have like launched and stuff like so you want me to describe work other people did on my team and how I surprised that yeah great like okay I can have a conversation with you about that but you know trying to say here’s my wire frames for 14 years
absolutely I think we over index on it I think there is this notion of design and managers need to have portfolios which is like okay well I’ve been doing design management for 14 years so you’re looking for work that’s 14 years old and then there’s sometimes like feedback like well we want you know to hear your case studies or project succeeds and you know things that have like launched and stuff like so you want me to describe work other people did on my team and how I surprised that yeah great like okay I can have a conversation with you about that but you know trying to say here’s my wire frames for 14 years
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Go doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, right? Yeah, Wheatley completely, you know in one of the things there too. This is true for candidates on individual contributor roles, you know people executing design research as well as managers, you know, the thing you did doesn’t matter as much in my opinion as someone who was also done a ton of hiring of my past. It doesn’t matter as much as how you did it. Right like the story of how that went is way more important than was it successful or not because there’s a lot of factors. It doesn’t matter if you were doing the design you were doing the research.
Go doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, right? Yeah, Wheatley completely, you know in one of the things there too. This is true for candidates on individual contributor roles, you know people executing design research as well as managers, you know, the thing you did doesn’t matter as much in my opinion as someone who was also done a ton of hiring of my past. It doesn’t matter as much as how you did it. Right like the story of how that went is way more important than was it successful or not because there’s a lot of factors. It doesn’t matter if you were doing the design you were doing the research.
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That you were making all the decisions which a man is never true. But then B is like unlikely for you to be able to influence because there’s so many other factors that influence success. Okay, so like the ultimate outcome and I hear a lot of people talk about this. Don’t show me, you know, like the polished final thing like tell me what what metrics you moved or what and it like that stuff doesn’t matter to me as much as to how did you go about this? And so you talked about this and share your thought process. What’s your attitude? What’s your perspective on this that matters way more because that’s going to show whether or not your
That you were making all the decisions which a man is never true. But then B is like unlikely for you to be able to influence because there’s so many other factors that influence success. Okay, so like the ultimate outcome and I hear a lot of people talk about this. Don’t show me, you know, like the polished final thing like tell me what what metrics you moved or what and it like that stuff doesn’t matter to me as much as to how did you go about this? And so you talked about this and share your thought process. What’s your attitude? What’s your perspective on this that matters way more because that’s going to show whether or not your
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For on this team as a manager or as a contributor. Yeah, and you know, it’s funny because like it. I tell all my former students is when I look at case studies online like they have a portfolio online and there’s all these great case studies first like there’s this. Oh nobody reads. It’s like well, yeah. Nobody reads the first time like I’m just looking through a thousand candidates. I don’t have time to read your full case study. It’s true. But by the time you’re interviewing on-site, I do have time to read your full case studies that said when it’s like the first couple rounds and I’m like trying to see if this person
For on this team as a manager or as a contributor. Yeah, and you know, it’s funny because like it. I tell all my former students is when I look at case studies online like they have a portfolio online and there’s all these great case studies first like there’s this. Oh nobody reads. It’s like well, yeah. Nobody reads the first time like I’m just looking through a thousand candidates. I don’t have time to read your full case study. It’s true. But by the time you’re interviewing on-site, I do have time to read your full case studies that said when it’s like the first couple rounds and I’m like trying to see if this person
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Should be, you know paired up of a designer to do a one-on-one interview or something over the phone. Like I’m gonna look through your case studies and the way I look through it is I look for that section that says what I learned some kind of learning section, you know, and it doesn’t have to really be a section but like I’m looking for like I did this project and here’s what I how I grew by doing this project if there’s something some kind of nugget in there whether it’s at the end at the top or wherever buried in between, you know weaved in as long as that’s in there like I feel like okay this person knows they don’t know.
Should be, you know paired up of a designer to do a one-on-one interview or something over the phone. Like I’m gonna look through your case studies and the way I look through it is I look for that section that says what I learned some kind of learning section, you know, and it doesn’t have to really be a section but like I’m looking for like I did this project and here’s what I how I grew by doing this project if there’s something some kind of nugget in there whether it’s at the end at the top or wherever buried in between, you know weaved in as long as that’s in there like I feel like okay this person knows they don’t know.
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All they know they learn something from this project. They can articulate what it was that they learn from it. Maybe they would do things differently. Now that they know this or maybe they would at least ask some different questions at the start or whatever it is, right? Because you know, what scares me more than that is the case study where it’s like everything went perfect and no learning was involved because they just knew how to do all this stuff and everything went off without a hitch like okay. This doesn’t sound real the sounds like somebody put up a facade behind what really, you know, there’s always that
All they know they learn something from this project. They can articulate what it was that they learn from it. Maybe they would do things differently. Now that they know this or maybe they would at least ask some different questions at the start or whatever it is, right? Because you know, what scares me more than that is the case study where it’s like everything went perfect and no learning was involved because they just knew how to do all this stuff and everything went off without a hitch like okay. This doesn’t sound real the sounds like somebody put up a facade behind what really, you know, there’s always that
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As Tim Team Dynamics business disagreements pivots reorg that happened in the middle of projects all this crazy stuff that we’re sort of afraid to show because it doesn’t look like a perfect case study, you know. Yeah, we want to we want to pretend that everything went really well because that’ll make it seem like we can replicate that and that’s not true. It never happens and that actually, you know, it reminds me of something that you said if you get a rejection letter, sometimes it’s not you sometimes it’s that place or the role or the situation and sometimes if especially if it’s a good manager good hiring
As Tim Team Dynamics business disagreements pivots reorg that happened in the middle of projects all this crazy stuff that we’re sort of afraid to show because it doesn’t look like a perfect case study, you know. Yeah, we want to we want to pretend that everything went really well because that’ll make it seem like we can replicate that and that’s not true. It never happens and that actually, you know, it reminds me of something that you said if you get a rejection letter, sometimes it’s not you sometimes it’s that place or the role or the situation and sometimes if especially if it’s a good manager good hiring
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They say this person isn’t right for this because they’re not going to get what they want out of it because I you know, I won things that I tell people new to our field is when you start interviewing remember that company needs you just as much as you need them and it’s got to be a mutual thing. And so the more we can cut out all of this facade that you say and just get two truths. Hey, here’s our warts show me your words. Let’s figure out if this if this works well together because if you can jive with the team and the culture and the and the way we approach stuff that’s indicative.
They say this person isn’t right for this because they’re not going to get what they want out of it because I you know, I won things that I tell people new to our field is when you start interviewing remember that company needs you just as much as you need them and it’s got to be a mutual thing. And so the more we can cut out all of this facade that you say and just get two truths. Hey, here’s our warts show me your words. Let’s figure out if this if this works well together because if you can jive with the team and the culture and the and the way we approach stuff that’s indicative.
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Of that you can help us all move forward and we know it ain’t going to be perfect. But we know that you’ll work with us well in this dynamic as you called it, right, but if we if we both putting up these what’s the old term potemkin Village? It’s like these these things that look really great. But there’s like no substance behind it world who were lying there were quite literally lying to each other and neither of us are going to get what we need to be successful. Yeah. It’s yeah, it’s tough to say because you know, so many people are in situations where they don’t have the benefit of a network or somebody on the inside to get in and
Of that you can help us all move forward and we know it ain’t going to be perfect. But we know that you’ll work with us well in this dynamic as you called it, right, but if we if we both putting up these what’s the old term potemkin Village? It’s like these these things that look really great. But there’s like no substance behind it world who were lying there were quite literally lying to each other and neither of us are going to get what we need to be successful. Yeah. It’s yeah, it’s tough to say because you know, so many people are in situations where they don’t have the benefit of a network or somebody on the inside to get in and
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Been trying for years and they finally got like that interview and they don’t want to mess it up and all this and they can’t help but think like well gosh if I’m truly honest about what happened and I messed up this thing was it’s going to make me look bad compared to the other Kenny. He’s not willing to be honest about it, you know, and the funny thing is is like as a hiring manager. It’s like if you’ve done enough interviews and you kind of read through it you can kind of say okay. It’s vertices are not tell me the full story or they were the problem, you know, like yeah, they don’t know. They don’t know what the problem was because they were the one
Been trying for years and they finally got like that interview and they don’t want to mess it up and all this and they can’t help but think like well gosh if I’m truly honest about what happened and I messed up this thing was it’s going to make me look bad compared to the other Kenny. He’s not willing to be honest about it, you know, and the funny thing is is like as a hiring manager. It’s like if you’ve done enough interviews and you kind of read through it you can kind of say okay. It’s vertices are not tell me the full story or they were the problem, you know, like yeah, they don’t know. They don’t know what the problem was because they were the one
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Yeah, right. Yeah, and that’s that is yeah God that’s such a great point because like some of these students that would come to me saying I didn’t get this job and didn’t give me any feedback and I’ll be like really and they’re like, how do you know you didn’t get it then? It’s like oh I got this letter and like, oh, can you show me the letter and I’ll read through it. I’m like, oh it says right here, you know, like I can literally like pair out the like here’s what they’re saying. You need to grow in you know, and you know, I can sit there and tell that to people until they’re blue in the face or I’m blue in the face whether they take action or not.
Yeah, right. Yeah, and that’s that is yeah God that’s such a great point because like some of these students that would come to me saying I didn’t get this job and didn’t give me any feedback and I’ll be like really and they’re like, how do you know you didn’t get it then? It’s like oh I got this letter and like, oh, can you show me the letter and I’ll read through it. I’m like, oh it says right here, you know, like I can literally like pair out the like here’s what they’re saying. You need to grow in you know, and you know, I can sit there and tell that to people until they’re blue in the face or I’m blue in the face whether they take action or not.
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Whether they really embraced that and say okay. This is a deficiency. How do I get better? You know, that’s a personal thing. That’s something you have to just kind of you have to like, you know, suck it up and say you know what? Nobody’s perfect. I mean, look, I’m I’ve been after this 24 years in the field. I’m still learning. I’m not perfect I screw up things all the time and I tell people like we’re just having the conversation other day of one of my buddies that I screwed something up years ago and it just we had disconnected for a while and then I reconnected with them and I’m like, hey man, sorry about that screw up. I should have done this. I
Whether they really embraced that and say okay. This is a deficiency. How do I get better? You know, that’s a personal thing. That’s something you have to just kind of you have to like, you know, suck it up and say you know what? Nobody’s perfect. I mean, look, I’m I’ve been after this 24 years in the field. I’m still learning. I’m not perfect I screw up things all the time and I tell people like we’re just having the conversation other day of one of my buddies that I screwed something up years ago and it just we had disconnected for a while and then I reconnected with them and I’m like, hey man, sorry about that screw up. I should have done this. I
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Wasn’t thinking about this, I you know and he’s like hey man, like I was still learning and then I we basically was kind of like yeah you are learning to be an icy. I was learning to be a manager and we kind of both Ruth from that, you know, but sometimes like we have to make those mistakes to learn from them and you know, that’s why I’m a big fan of sharing that mistake and what people learn from it because it’s not so much that like, oh I did this thing in this project, you know, here’s my case study. I did this thing this project and I totally screwed up everything why I totally screwed up this one.
Wasn’t thinking about this, I you know and he’s like hey man, like I was still learning and then I we basically was kind of like yeah you are learning to be an icy. I was learning to be a manager and we kind of both Ruth from that, you know, but sometimes like we have to make those mistakes to learn from them and you know, that’s why I’m a big fan of sharing that mistake and what people learn from it because it’s not so much that like, oh I did this thing in this project, you know, here’s my case study. I did this thing this project and I totally screwed up everything why I totally screwed up this one.
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It’s like okay. Yeah, if you just leave it like that. It’s probably not going to go over well an interview but if you said here’s the actions I took to try to one surface to screw up to try to remedy the issue or get support to remedy the issue doesn’t have to be you to save the world. It could be you relying on somebody being smart enough to know that somebody else can help solve the problem better that of the thing that you mess up, you know, and yeah, it doesn’t look great that you messed up. But you know what, it’s did you grow from it. Did you learn from it? Did you you know, what were the actions you took from it, you know?
It’s like okay. Yeah, if you just leave it like that. It’s probably not going to go over well an interview but if you said here’s the actions I took to try to one surface to screw up to try to remedy the issue or get support to remedy the issue doesn’t have to be you to save the world. It could be you relying on somebody being smart enough to know that somebody else can help solve the problem better that of the thing that you mess up, you know, and yeah, it doesn’t look great that you messed up. But you know what, it’s did you grow from it. Did you learn from it? Did you you know, what were the actions you took from it, you know?
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Like that kind of stuff that matters so much more talking about the case study as you’re mentioning before is like, you know, what was your thinking and mentality behind all this as you went through it? I do think metrics are important, but I do think you know, it’s not just like hey, here’s my process. I did research. I did personas. I did wireframes, you know, it’s like that’s what the robot did. Okay, like tell me about what the person did right tell me about like the feelings you had through this project and like why like, what was the rationale of like why you decided to do like five different flows instead of one massive flow, you know.
Like that kind of stuff that matters so much more talking about the case study as you’re mentioning before is like, you know, what was your thinking and mentality behind all this as you went through it? I do think metrics are important, but I do think you know, it’s not just like hey, here’s my process. I did research. I did personas. I did wireframes, you know, it’s like that’s what the robot did. Okay, like tell me about what the person did right tell me about like the feelings you had through this project and like why like, what was the rationale of like why you decided to do like five different flows instead of one massive flow, you know.
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What was the rationale behind why you did this screen this way, you know, even on that like tactical level. There’s some thinking behind it, you know, right and we want a surface that versus just like here’s my wireframes. Here’s my final design, you know and like yeah, okay. This doesn’t tell me anything about that experience. Yeah, that’s very very true. I mean the person that you are the things that you care about and how will you do this work or really? What’s going to make you successful or not? Because like we’ve talked about already the robot can do the thing right? Like we can teach anybody.
What was the rationale behind why you did this screen this way, you know, even on that like tactical level. There’s some thinking behind it, you know, right and we want a surface that versus just like here’s my wireframes. Here’s my final design, you know and like yeah, okay. This doesn’t tell me anything about that experience. Yeah, that’s very very true. I mean the person that you are the things that you care about and how will you do this work or really? What’s going to make you successful or not? Because like we’ve talked about already the robot can do the thing right? Like we can teach anybody.
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See how to do that. It’s applying it from a certain perspective and with a certain passion or not. I think that’s really going to separate people. You know, you know, there’s one thing I wanted to add a caveat to in terms of a portfolio or resume or anything like that. It’s with visual design. That is one place. That’s one caveat. I would add that. Yeah, I want you to wow me right because like you tend you’re probably get trying to hire somebody who does really great visual work, but I still want the story behind it. Right? Like I don’t want to I don’t want to just see some really
See how to do that. It’s applying it from a certain perspective and with a certain passion or not. I think that’s really going to separate people. You know, you know, there’s one thing I wanted to add a caveat to in terms of a portfolio or resume or anything like that. It’s with visual design. That is one place. That’s one caveat. I would add that. Yeah, I want you to wow me right because like you tend you’re probably get trying to hire somebody who does really great visual work, but I still want the story behind it. Right? Like I don’t want to I don’t want to just see some really
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She in really cool and interesting and elegant stuff. I want to know how you arrived there. I want to know how you made those decisions. I think in those cases at does matter a little bit more. Yeah. It depends on like what the product space is and stuff. I mean like the last thing we wanted to AWS designer to do is wow, you nice like right. It’s seriously like that people need to get their tasks done. They need to get in and get out there managing thousands of servers, you know, like they just need to get something accomplished know that it got done. I’ve confidence and trust it got done and then be able to move on right?
She in really cool and interesting and elegant stuff. I want to know how you arrived there. I want to know how you made those decisions. I think in those cases at does matter a little bit more. Yeah. It depends on like what the product space is and stuff. I mean like the last thing we wanted to AWS designer to do is wow, you nice like right. It’s seriously like that people need to get their tasks done. They need to get in and get out there managing thousands of servers, you know, like they just need to get something accomplished know that it got done. I’ve confidence and trust it got done and then be able to move on right?
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So, you know this whole like hey, let’s play Pong why this thing loads up or whatever? It’s like that’s a great. Wow factor for some scenarios, but in other scenarios, it’s totally like flawed, right, you know, especially if you’re dealing with like high-performing systems complicated systems that involve many subsystems like that because you know, I mean, I’ll be honest like when I started AWS they had like 72, I think it’s like 72 services and like 50 of them were launched. And by the time I left there was a hundred and fifty launched services.
So, you know this whole like hey, let’s play Pong why this thing loads up or whatever? It’s like that’s a great. Wow factor for some scenarios, but in other scenarios, it’s totally like flawed, right, you know, especially if you’re dealing with like high-performing systems complicated systems that involve many subsystems like that because you know, I mean, I’ll be honest like when I started AWS they had like 72, I think it’s like 72 services and like 50 of them were launched. And by the time I left there was a hundred and fifty launched services.
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It’s a massive complicated system so many moving parts and some of them are simple and some of them are complex. Like one of them you had to learn machine learning you had to understand how machine learning and statistics worked use it and they wanted anybody to be able to use it any technical person, you know, I could upload my database but you have to actually understand like what the bell curve looks like and why there is outliers and what does that mean about your data set, you know, that is something that like isn’t going to be just this. Hey, let me just show you a video and then move forward from the sort of story.
It’s a massive complicated system so many moving parts and some of them are simple and some of them are complex. Like one of them you had to learn machine learning you had to understand how machine learning and statistics worked use it and they wanted anybody to be able to use it any technical person, you know, I could upload my database but you have to actually understand like what the bell curve looks like and why there is outliers and what does that mean about your data set, you know, that is something that like isn’t going to be just this. Hey, let me just show you a video and then move forward from the sort of story.
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Uriel and boom you got it. It might take several sessions. There’s a lot of things that like wow is one thing and I think there does need to be some level of delight and things but like knowing when and where and to what degree to place that sort of delight is important we tent right now these portfolios over index under like they have your reading you’re just trying to read the damn thing and there’s stuff lying around at animating and spinning and you’re scrolling is impeded because something else needs to animate in based on your scroll.
Uriel and boom you got it. It might take several sessions. There’s a lot of things that like wow is one thing and I think there does need to be some level of delight and things but like knowing when and where and to what degree to place that sort of delight is important we tent right now these portfolios over index under like they have your reading you’re just trying to read the damn thing and there’s stuff lying around at animating and spinning and you’re scrolling is impeded because something else needs to animate in based on your scroll.
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Location. Whoa. I just need to read this and I have 10 seconds to do it and you just spent 20 in my seconds, you know, and I know I need to move on to the other candidate, right? Yeah. So like I think the over index on wow, it’s like if I want a motion designer, yeah do that absolutely do that stuff. But like I’m not hiring a motion designer. I need an interaction designer that knows how to build things simply and straightforward, right? Yeah. So to me like the visual designs. Yeah, they are one of the final artifacts, but they are not the final like if you want to wow me do me a link to the launch product if it’s public.
Location. Whoa. I just need to read this and I have 10 seconds to do it and you just spent 20 in my seconds, you know, and I know I need to move on to the other candidate, right? Yeah. So like I think the over index on wow, it’s like if I want a motion designer, yeah do that absolutely do that stuff. But like I’m not hiring a motion designer. I need an interaction designer that knows how to build things simply and straightforward, right? Yeah. So to me like the visual designs. Yeah, they are one of the final artifacts, but they are not the final like if you want to wow me do me a link to the launch product if it’s public.
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And now not everybody has that a lot of people work on products that never launched. Yeah, and they can’t even show a case study on some of them because they have IP, right so like and there’s this notion. Oh, it’s behind a password man. That’s the quickest way putting IP related material behind a password is the quickest way to get actually dismissed from a job interview. You don’t have authorization to share it and now you’re sharing it in an interview now, we’re wondering like what else are you going to share behind closed doors? It is like we’ve had to dismiss candidates at AWS and other companies too. But like the thing is is like
And now not everybody has that a lot of people work on products that never launched. Yeah, and they can’t even show a case study on some of them because they have IP, right so like and there’s this notion. Oh, it’s behind a password man. That’s the quickest way putting IP related material behind a password is the quickest way to get actually dismissed from a job interview. You don’t have authorization to share it and now you’re sharing it in an interview now, we’re wondering like what else are you going to share behind closed doors? It is like we’ve had to dismiss candidates at AWS and other companies too. But like the thing is is like
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Having the case studies one thing but like again articulating it right now. If you can’t do it, how do you show visual design? You can’t it’s an internal thing IP related thing and da all this stuff. It’s you did the visual design on it. You might have to just not have that case study or figure out ways to talk about it without showing anything, you know and talk about on such a level that like, you know, lawyers reviewed it and said, yes this content and a black lined out, you know, just like like a federal government like that black lining out.
Having the case studies one thing but like again articulating it right now. If you can’t do it, how do you show visual design? You can’t it’s an internal thing IP related thing and da all this stuff. It’s you did the visual design on it. You might have to just not have that case study or figure out ways to talk about it without showing anything, you know and talk about on such a level that like, you know, lawyers reviewed it and said, yes this content and a black lined out, you know, just like like a federal government like that black lining out.
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Like okay can’t say this can’t say that, you know and then launched that case study that might help but that’s going to be pretty hard Strat right? And so those kinds of folks which there’s a need for those folks. We need people that can work in highly sensitive IP internal related products. How do we find them? It’s not going to be through a portfolio. Right? So we have to start rethinking about like how we think of the portfolio. What do we think of her photo of just between major and I see but also like internal worker versus external worker consumer versus in
Like okay can’t say this can’t say that, you know and then launched that case study that might help but that’s going to be pretty hard Strat right? And so those kinds of folks which there’s a need for those folks. We need people that can work in highly sensitive IP internal related products. How do we find them? It’s not going to be through a portfolio. Right? So we have to start rethinking about like how we think of the portfolio. What do we think of her photo of just between major and I see but also like internal worker versus external worker consumer versus in
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Prize, what do these things look like? And I think there’s this notion that like once a portfolio all these a portfolio kind of thing like like, oh, what’s the best portfolios out there and show like 15 portfolios and they’re all completely different because oh, well, hopefully the one was actually an industrial designer who happens to do digital portfolio. Number two is from a motion designer who’s also product designer for Phil of three is somebody who’s does development and showing off some other code as well, you know, like these are all different portfolio so we can’t sit there and look at them like they’re all Cookie Cutter the same thing and say,
Prize, what do these things look like? And I think there’s this notion that like once a portfolio all these a portfolio kind of thing like like, oh, what’s the best portfolios out there and show like 15 portfolios and they’re all completely different because oh, well, hopefully the one was actually an industrial designer who happens to do digital portfolio. Number two is from a motion designer who’s also product designer for Phil of three is somebody who’s does development and showing off some other code as well, you know, like these are all different portfolio so we can’t sit there and look at them like they’re all Cookie Cutter the same thing and say,
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So these are the best ones you should make a portfolio like this because it varies depending on circumstance it varies depending on your trajectory. You know, what you want to do what the company is that you’re applying for, you know, so not every portfolio will be the same. It’s flawed mechanism, right? Because we got in this notion like design. Oh, it’s visual. It’s know there’s a lot of design work that is absolutely not visual like AWS. We had designers working on apis and a man line. That’s like nothing to do with interface aside from the command line notion of a
So these are the best ones you should make a portfolio like this because it varies depending on circumstance it varies depending on your trajectory. You know, what you want to do what the company is that you’re applying for, you know, so not every portfolio will be the same. It’s flawed mechanism, right? Because we got in this notion like design. Oh, it’s visual. It’s know there’s a lot of design work that is absolutely not visual like AWS. We had designers working on apis and a man line. That’s like nothing to do with interface aside from the command line notion of a
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Our Fates, right? You know and we had well later on they had people that were working on oral interface Alexa and things like that like how you talk to it and how it responds and What are keywords and triggers and what you know, mapping out the human language, you know, you know all human languages and like all that stuff is not on a screen it might be in a flow but it’s there’s no there’s no visual artifact, you know, so to say like bignell design is important if you’re going to be doing that as part of the job, right and I think this notion of aux
Our Fates, right? You know and we had well later on they had people that were working on oral interface Alexa and things like that like how you talk to it and how it responds and What are keywords and triggers and what you know, mapping out the human language, you know, you know all human languages and like all that stuff is not on a screen it might be in a flow but it’s there’s no there’s no visual artifact, you know, so to say like bignell design is important if you’re going to be doing that as part of the job, right and I think this notion of aux
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Designer laughing to do visual design is kind of a flawed notion. Yeah, I think we need to kind of take a step back and say what is visual designer, right? What is a ux designer you could even argue what is a product designer and you know what you can combine those two at that point like and that’s fine if that’s what you’re hiring for and that’s what your need is. But like I think we’ve gotten into this world where the investment and design is so minimal compared to investment in engineering and development that you end up in the situation where it’s like, well we need to hire five people, but we’re going to only have headcount for what
Designer laughing to do visual design is kind of a flawed notion. Yeah, I think we need to kind of take a step back and say what is visual designer, right? What is a ux designer you could even argue what is a product designer and you know what you can combine those two at that point like and that’s fine if that’s what you’re hiring for and that’s what your need is. But like I think we’ve gotten into this world where the investment and design is so minimal compared to investment in engineering and development that you end up in the situation where it’s like, well we need to hire five people, but we’re going to only have headcount for what
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How do we do this? Oh, well, let’s just make them do research design visual design interaction design information architecture and all these things in one roll. It’s like, okay talk about sending somebody up for failure because they’re not necessarily going to be great at all those things and you know, I’ve literally watched job postings, that’s it or over two years. Wow unfilled because they can’t find someone who’s good enough at the visual design and also good enough at the research and also getting you know, and all the things that they’re asking. It’s like maybe at some point you might need to throw some
How do we do this? Oh, well, let’s just make them do research design visual design interaction design information architecture and all these things in one roll. It’s like, okay talk about sending somebody up for failure because they’re not necessarily going to be great at all those things and you know, I’ve literally watched job postings, that’s it or over two years. Wow unfilled because they can’t find someone who’s good enough at the visual design and also good enough at the research and also getting you know, and all the things that they’re asking. It’s like maybe at some point you might need to throw some
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Head count at it, you know and I’m a firm believer of the like 126 128 ratio for every front end developer who are Engineers you have for every six to eight of those you have one designer right? I’m saying this because you know, when I inherited the AWS team, it was one designer for like something like 70 to 75 front-end Engineers front-end developers basically developers that were got the Short Straw and had to do front end hated doing it in a subpar, you know, whatever but like that was like over it.
Head count at it, you know and I’m a firm believer of the like 126 128 ratio for every front end developer who are Engineers you have for every six to eight of those you have one designer right? I’m saying this because you know, when I inherited the AWS team, it was one designer for like something like 70 to 75 front-end Engineers front-end developers basically developers that were got the Short Straw and had to do front end hated doing it in a subpar, you know, whatever but like that was like over it.
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Into these designers, there’s only six and one the team they were supporting 75 products. They were well over extended right that doesn’t set anybody up for Success that basically just says you’re just going to be a factory just producing something and if that’s what you want great, but like you should just disclose that upfront like yeah just want designers who just produce, you know, yeah deliverables and move on right that’s not going to fill that need that like this notion that OU X is important. We need to invest in ux that you hear from all these like Business magazines and all this.
Into these designers, there’s only six and one the team they were supporting 75 products. They were well over extended right that doesn’t set anybody up for Success that basically just says you’re just going to be a factory just producing something and if that’s what you want great, but like you should just disclose that upfront like yeah just want designers who just produce, you know, yeah deliverables and move on right that’s not going to fill that need that like this notion that OU X is important. We need to invest in ux that you hear from all these like Business magazines and all this.
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Of stuff right? Like that’s just going to be sort of lipstick on the pig at that point, you know, and I hate to use that analogy, but that’s really what it is about. Yeah, definitely that sort of brings together a lot of things that we touched on. It just goes back to being honest with yourself the company hopefully hiring manager being as honest as early as possible because in some cases it’s like I just want to get my hands dirty and I want to I want to crank out a bunch of stuff to get that experience and if that’s what you need then this is a perfect fit right, but if it’s not and you’re pretending this is this, you know,
Of stuff right? Like that’s just going to be sort of lipstick on the pig at that point, you know, and I hate to use that analogy, but that’s really what it is about. Yeah, definitely that sort of brings together a lot of things that we touched on. It just goes back to being honest with yourself the company hopefully hiring manager being as honest as early as possible because in some cases it’s like I just want to get my hands dirty and I want to I want to crank out a bunch of stuff to get that experience and if that’s what you need then this is a perfect fit right, but if it’s not and you’re pretending this is this, you know,
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Strategic role where you’re having much more of an impact and all of a sudden you sit down at your desk and you go I’m doing revision 32 on this file and that’s not my forte, you know, and so here’s your teeth right like that. Totally. That’s absolutely it right. And so it’s like why are we leaving those roles senior? I don’t know right? Like totally it doesn’t help anybody. That’s actually an interesting transition point to me to ask you this one question that’s been in the back of my mind. We talked a lot about well, what can we do if we’re in junior or maybe maybe
Strategic role where you’re having much more of an impact and all of a sudden you sit down at your desk and you go I’m doing revision 32 on this file and that’s not my forte, you know, and so here’s your teeth right like that. Totally. That’s absolutely it right. And so it’s like why are we leaving those roles senior? I don’t know right? Like totally it doesn’t help anybody. That’s actually an interesting transition point to me to ask you this one question that’s been in the back of my mind. We talked a lot about well, what can we do if we’re in junior or maybe maybe
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level design position things that we can be thinking about ourselves to get better to move into these other roles. It sounds like we also have a problem though. We’re we’re not doing enough to create good design managers, right? So what kind of advice would you give somebody if they’re in that position? Maybe they’ve been put in that position prematurely because of the way the industry is or maybe they’ve been in there for a while and they’re just somebody who gives a damn it wants to get better Management’s kind of interesting thing because it is a separate track from design individual contributors, right? I think the problem has been
level design position things that we can be thinking about ourselves to get better to move into these other roles. It sounds like we also have a problem though. We’re we’re not doing enough to create good design managers, right? So what kind of advice would you give somebody if they’re in that position? Maybe they’ve been put in that position prematurely because of the way the industry is or maybe they’ve been in there for a while and they’re just somebody who gives a damn it wants to get better Management’s kind of interesting thing because it is a separate track from design individual contributors, right? I think the problem has been
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Historically that there is this notion that you become a designer, you know Junior whatever mid senior and at some point you turn into a manager as part of the same track, right? Like it’s just like oh your senior the next promotion is manager, you know like and without this realization that oh my gosh management is a completely different skill set. It’s like this people thing right? It’s people management is Process Management, its upward management lateral management, you know working with all the different VPS. I mean God knows how many VPS and GM good.
Historically that there is this notion that you become a designer, you know Junior whatever mid senior and at some point you turn into a manager as part of the same track, right? Like it’s just like oh your senior the next promotion is manager, you know like and without this realization that oh my gosh management is a completely different skill set. It’s like this people thing right? It’s people management is Process Management, its upward management lateral management, you know working with all the different VPS. I mean God knows how many VPS and GM good.
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If us but like I met with all of them, you know, and I’m sure my team was like where in the hell is Nick all the time, but I think you know at that at that point like, you know, there’s this notion that like yeah senior designer needs to go into management, which is just like problematic. So then you end up of managers that will really great designers and now putting them in the role of managing a team with like no support no training. No, no workshops. No nothing, you know, and then maybe when there’s a deficiency then they start throwing Workshop.
If us but like I met with all of them, you know, and I’m sure my team was like where in the hell is Nick all the time, but I think you know at that at that point like, you know, there’s this notion that like yeah senior designer needs to go into management, which is just like problematic. So then you end up of managers that will really great designers and now putting them in the role of managing a team with like no support no training. No, no workshops. No nothing, you know, and then maybe when there’s a deficiency then they start throwing Workshop.
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Something at best case scenario if it’s a big company that invests in that kind of stuff but like for the most part it’s usually after the fact it’s usually like too late the boats already kind of shift, you know, and now they’re in Troubled Water. I think what we really need to realize is that you can be an IC designer and move up all the way as far as you can, you know, like without ever having to manage anybody that could be completely acceptable. Hmm. That means senior designers moving principal designers senior principal designers, you know, whatever the names you want to give those labels and
Something at best case scenario if it’s a big company that invests in that kind of stuff but like for the most part it’s usually after the fact it’s usually like too late the boats already kind of shift, you know, and now they’re in Troubled Water. I think what we really need to realize is that you can be an IC designer and move up all the way as far as you can, you know, like without ever having to manage anybody that could be completely acceptable. Hmm. That means senior designers moving principal designers senior principal designers, you know, whatever the names you want to give those labels and
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I know it can split a thousand ways and people will argue semantics of all that stuff. But ultimately there should be a way to be like essentially a distinguished designer top of your industry a lot of experience and being able to coach and Elevate no longer Junior designers, but actually other senior designers, right that is its own thing and that’s just still in some ways executing the work or at least has a strategic part of the work, which I think we also have a deficiency in terms of ux and design strategy out there, right?
I know it can split a thousand ways and people will argue semantics of all that stuff. But ultimately there should be a way to be like essentially a distinguished designer top of your industry a lot of experience and being able to coach and Elevate no longer Junior designers, but actually other senior designers, right that is its own thing and that’s just still in some ways executing the work or at least has a strategic part of the work, which I think we also have a deficiency in terms of ux and design strategy out there, right?
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There are people that do it but there’s not like it’s not a very formalized role in a lot of cases maybe a agencies because they get Bill per head either or whatever but you know in-house it’s kind of like another headcount and so know there’s not really that you know, I’m not as often as it should be. Anyway, maybe a separate track, right? So management involves the people skills involve cement train involves somebody who wants to help Elevate others involve people that are willing to elevate others ask them. And I think there’s this notion that like also as I see
There are people that do it but there’s not like it’s not a very formalized role in a lot of cases maybe a agencies because they get Bill per head either or whatever but you know in-house it’s kind of like another headcount and so know there’s not really that you know, I’m not as often as it should be. Anyway, maybe a separate track, right? So management involves the people skills involve cement train involves somebody who wants to help Elevate others involve people that are willing to elevate others ask them. And I think there’s this notion that like also as I see
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See they get this idea of like oh manager gets paid more. No actually sometimes I seized get paid more and managers. It does happen. I’ve seen the org charts and banding structures for pay salaries and beiste but like it’s not necessarily the case that said there’s also this notion of all that job looks easy. This person just goes around and meetings all day want to do that job. I’ll never have to touch a wireframe again and they get into the role and they realize it sort of the grass is greener right to get into the role and then they realized oh my God, this is way harder than I thought it was there.
See they get this idea of like oh manager gets paid more. No actually sometimes I seized get paid more and managers. It does happen. I’ve seen the org charts and banding structures for pay salaries and beiste but like it’s not necessarily the case that said there’s also this notion of all that job looks easy. This person just goes around and meetings all day want to do that job. I’ll never have to touch a wireframe again and they get into the role and they realize it sort of the grass is greener right to get into the role and then they realized oh my God, this is way harder than I thought it was there.
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So many moving Parts these people don’t like me. These people are my best friends, but they won’t do anything for me and in these people are actually helping me out. You know, it’s just like you’re just kind of running all over the place, right? Yes, you have clean and you don’t know what you’re doing there. Right? So the way I’ve always looked at that transition is it really could be a trial a trial for the team to say can this person manage a team, you know, so the design leadership and executive level and stuff they do they have the right skills to be able to manage your team. So there could be a trial that but they can also be a trial for the
So many moving Parts these people don’t like me. These people are my best friends, but they won’t do anything for me and in these people are actually helping me out. You know, it’s just like you’re just kind of running all over the place, right? Yes, you have clean and you don’t know what you’re doing there. Right? So the way I’ve always looked at that transition is it really could be a trial a trial for the team to say can this person manage a team, you know, so the design leadership and executive level and stuff they do they have the right skills to be able to manage your team. So there could be a trial that but they can also be a trial for the
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In themselves saying do I even want to do this role? I know it looked really cool from my perspective. But once I’m in the role, is it going to look cool then? You know, what I would do is what I call a limited run file one year trial. So I called it design design lead role, which is a temporary one year role where you basically put somebody in a position where they are now officially managing people but in you know, the the org chart would still say the manager manages people, right? But you basically say, okay. Here’s your 0231 or whatever.
In themselves saying do I even want to do this role? I know it looked really cool from my perspective. But once I’m in the role, is it going to look cool then? You know, what I would do is what I call a limited run file one year trial. So I called it design design lead role, which is a temporary one year role where you basically put somebody in a position where they are now officially managing people but in you know, the the org chart would still say the manager manages people, right? But you basically say, okay. Here’s your 0231 or whatever.
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People that you’re going to manage and we’re going to do this for about a year maximum and you can do the check-ins, you know at the start you do a lot of them and as it goes because maybe a little bit less and towards the end. There’s fewer check-ins maybe and then at the very end of the year if you still can’t decide, you know, I don’t know if this person is going to be a good manager or they can’t decide I don’t know if I’m a good manager or not. It’s kind of all use kind of a lewd phrase my old band manager used to say he said basically shit or get off the pot basically meaning if we can’t decide in a year. We need to call it and say this probably isn’t a good fit.
People that you’re going to manage and we’re going to do this for about a year maximum and you can do the check-ins, you know at the start you do a lot of them and as it goes because maybe a little bit less and towards the end. There’s fewer check-ins maybe and then at the very end of the year if you still can’t decide, you know, I don’t know if this person is going to be a good manager or they can’t decide I don’t know if I’m a good manager or not. It’s kind of all use kind of a lewd phrase my old band manager used to say he said basically shit or get off the pot basically meaning if we can’t decide in a year. We need to call it and say this probably isn’t a good fit.
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For this person to be manager. Let’s keep them in the icy track. They move back to principal or whatever level senior level or whatever. It was. They were before and continue to move forward in their career if it’s been a year and they maybe should have got a promotion. Maybe we help accommodate that you know, whatever needs to be ultimately gives a trial run so we could see what it’s really going to be like, you know versus this like just thrown into the deep end and see if they swam you know is just not effective and you see a lot of people like leading companies and then they go on to other companies, but they have this mindset of like I should be at this level where I should be
For this person to be manager. Let’s keep them in the icy track. They move back to principal or whatever level senior level or whatever. It was. They were before and continue to move forward in their career if it’s been a year and they maybe should have got a promotion. Maybe we help accommodate that you know, whatever needs to be ultimately gives a trial run so we could see what it’s really going to be like, you know versus this like just thrown into the deep end and see if they swam you know is just not effective and you see a lot of people like leading companies and then they go on to other companies, but they have this mindset of like I should be at this level where I should be
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in this kind of a role and maybe they’re not good and it just have a good Mentor to help guide them saying here’s your deficiencies here’s how you could be better at it yeah yeah so managers need to be better at that coaching and mentoring thing themselves they also need to invest in that the development of their team you know by by having you know either internally like building programs where they can train those folks if be better managers and do it like from the get-go like not wait until some problem happens or their services out there people come in and can
in this kind of a role and maybe they’re not good and it just have a good Mentor to help guide them saying here’s your deficiencies here’s how you could be better at it yeah yeah so managers need to be better at that coaching and mentoring thing themselves they also need to invest in that the development of their team you know by by having you know either internally like building programs where they can train those folks if be better managers and do it like from the get-go like not wait until some problem happens or their services out there people come in and can
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do that kind of coaching to Young there’s lots of leadership coaches and other things like that that can come into a business and help guide them and it’s what I do that on the design side of things for crafting rigor but like there’s other people that are like true leadership coaches that are certified at this that can provide that kind of thing you know because you don’t just like walk it I mean well you could but you don’t necessarily just walk into a chief experience officer role on day one you know you have to build yourself to that level yeah totally you know just a couple things I’ll summarize
do that kind of coaching to Young there’s lots of leadership coaches and other things like that that can come into a business and help guide them and it’s what I do that on the design side of things for crafting rigor but like there’s other people that are like true leadership coaches that are certified at this that can provide that kind of thing you know because you don’t just like walk it I mean well you could but you don’t necessarily just walk into a chief experience officer role on day one you know you have to build yourself to that level yeah totally you know just a couple things I’ll summarize
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Hearing as takeaways from what you shared their. You know, number one is being a very good designer or researcher or strategist does not equal being a very good manager and I think that people generally get that but it is worth repeating again, right? So there’s that and then you know, the second one is like work on yourself. If you do think you want to be a manager take it upon yourself to learn about that and be and get better at it. You know, whether your company provides that are not like there are resources free and otherwise that can help you.
Hearing as takeaways from what you shared their. You know, number one is being a very good designer or researcher or strategist does not equal being a very good manager and I think that people generally get that but it is worth repeating again, right? So there’s that and then you know, the second one is like work on yourself. If you do think you want to be a manager take it upon yourself to learn about that and be and get better at it. You know, whether your company provides that are not like there are resources free and otherwise that can help you.
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Do that, you know and that initiative in and of itself I think is exemplary of qualities. You want in a manager. So so that’s just gotta I’ll table that for what it’s worth. The other thing that’s worth while talking about there too is I think any good manager does still have a good understanding of The Craft whether they practice it or not. You can’t really hope to effectively manage designers a bunch of people who hopefully are as passionate or more passionate than you are about the work they do without being able to speak their language race with I’ve always sort of said like dip your toe in that pond every once in a while even
Do that, you know and that initiative in and of itself I think is exemplary of qualities. You want in a manager. So so that’s just gotta I’ll table that for what it’s worth. The other thing that’s worth while talking about there too is I think any good manager does still have a good understanding of The Craft whether they practice it or not. You can’t really hope to effectively manage designers a bunch of people who hopefully are as passionate or more passionate than you are about the work they do without being able to speak their language race with I’ve always sort of said like dip your toe in that pond every once in a while even
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It’s just sort of you know, cognitively. Maybe you’re not putting pencil to paper. But but make sure you kind of stay in that head space so you can be effective for the people who work for me with you. And I think you know a lot of a lot of folks like that are in management positions. They kind of like Miss that like getting their like rolling up their sleeves and doing the stuff, you know, and it’s there’s nothing to stop them from saying like hey, you know, maybe they, you know need to like cut out some time of their business day to focus on doing some of that stuff, you know small.
It’s just sort of you know, cognitively. Maybe you’re not putting pencil to paper. But but make sure you kind of stay in that head space so you can be effective for the people who work for me with you. And I think you know a lot of a lot of folks like that are in management positions. They kind of like Miss that like getting their like rolling up their sleeves and doing the stuff, you know, and it’s there’s nothing to stop them from saying like hey, you know, maybe they, you know need to like cut out some time of their business day to focus on doing some of that stuff, you know small.
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A project or whatever it is, you know something just needs to get done or you know, if they have the luxury in their own spare time, you know about some projects, you know, like I’ve done so many side projects. I can’t even count me digital web was a side project right? Like I know not everybody has that luxury don’t get me started about people’s personal time and the work-life balancing but that said like, you know, there does need to be a reconnection with the craft. So to speak every once in a while, right? I’ve been at it for a number of years. You’ve got to have some sort of connection with that there.
A project or whatever it is, you know something just needs to get done or you know, if they have the luxury in their own spare time, you know about some projects, you know, like I’ve done so many side projects. I can’t even count me digital web was a side project right? Like I know not everybody has that luxury don’t get me started about people’s personal time and the work-life balancing but that said like, you know, there does need to be a reconnection with the craft. So to speak every once in a while, right? I’ve been at it for a number of years. You’ve got to have some sort of connection with that there.
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involved in the industry and having those discussions and just kind of learning about what’s going on doing work yourself you know or whatever it is otherwise you know yeah you stagnate distance yourself so far that once you finally do reach Chief experience officer or whatever it is after your 20th promotion or something you know like you’re gonna be so disconnected from how things are actually done look at the last few years and just tooling right like just mind-blowing change right yeah everything used to be Creative Suite before and you know whatever you know
involved in the industry and having those discussions and just kind of learning about what’s going on doing work yourself you know or whatever it is otherwise you know yeah you stagnate distance yourself so far that once you finally do reach Chief experience officer or whatever it is after your 20th promotion or something you know like you’re gonna be so disconnected from how things are actually done look at the last few years and just tooling right like just mind-blowing change right yeah everything used to be Creative Suite before and you know whatever you know
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Vizio and omnigraffle now it’s like all of a sudden were in the whole different world if you’re not keeping tabs on that yeah you’re going to be on yourself stagnant awesome look Nick we’ve been talking for a while and I’m certain that even just a couple of the things we touched on we can keep going even for a whole another hour but I need to be respectful of your time and so one of the things I typically ask people as we as we sort of wrapping up is that you know if I forgot everything we talked about in somebody were to say hey well you know what did you and Nick talked about how would you summarize that how would you answer that question for them we talked about a lot
Vizio and omnigraffle now it’s like all of a sudden were in the whole different world if you’re not keeping tabs on that yeah you’re going to be on yourself stagnant awesome look Nick we’ve been talking for a while and I’m certain that even just a couple of the things we touched on we can keep going even for a whole another hour but I need to be respectful of your time and so one of the things I typically ask people as we as we sort of wrapping up is that you know if I forgot everything we talked about in somebody were to say hey well you know what did you and Nick talked about how would you summarize that how would you answer that question for them we talked about a lot
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Often we think the big thing here is you need to do better and investing in the people inside of organizations. We need to be better about fostering their growth. We need to be better about removing the gates into our field. We need to be better World citizens. That’s huge thing this last year, right? We also need to speak up for ourselves and protect ourselves give ourselves self-care. I feel like we’re just in this like production massive machine that we failed.
Often we think the big thing here is you need to do better and investing in the people inside of organizations. We need to be better about fostering their growth. We need to be better about removing the gates into our field. We need to be better World citizens. That’s huge thing this last year, right? We also need to speak up for ourselves and protect ourselves give ourselves self-care. I feel like we’re just in this like production massive machine that we failed.
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To step outside of it and take a break once in a while and I see some of my friends doing that but yeah, there’s all sorts of things that we I think we need to be doing a better job at I don’t think it takes much as much as one might think invest in that stuff. We need to be better at like helping people achieve their goals. Nice. I like this summary. Is there anything that you want to share with folks that maybe we didn’t get to or talk about today? I’m working on site launched and probably by the time this podcasts up. Hopefully knock on wood here. It will be launched.
To step outside of it and take a break once in a while and I see some of my friends doing that but yeah, there’s all sorts of things that we I think we need to be doing a better job at I don’t think it takes much as much as one might think invest in that stuff. We need to be better at like helping people achieve their goals. Nice. I like this summary. Is there anything that you want to share with folks that maybe we didn’t get to or talk about today? I’m working on site launched and probably by the time this podcasts up. Hopefully knock on wood here. It will be launched.
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I am offering mentoring as a service full disclosure there. But I also do Times Free mentoring depend on the candidate or a lot of actors basically don’t have the opportunity that other folks would otherwise have specially like the opportunities that I’ve had which I’ve been very thankful for so I do a lot of that and you know craft and riggers been something that I’ve been kind of sticking around for a while and it’s kind of finally start to materialize. So look for some sort of announcements related to that which is after rigor for those who don’t know is just basically my my business that I run right now.
I am offering mentoring as a service full disclosure there. But I also do Times Free mentoring depend on the candidate or a lot of actors basically don’t have the opportunity that other folks would otherwise have specially like the opportunities that I’ve had which I’ve been very thankful for so I do a lot of that and you know craft and riggers been something that I’ve been kind of sticking around for a while and it’s kind of finally start to materialize. So look for some sort of announcements related to that which is after rigor for those who don’t know is just basically my my business that I run right now.
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Oh, it does support my mentoring. But I also do essentially design mentoring and Advising organizations that are like what should my design team look like. How should it be structured? When should I hire a junior designer are leveling guides important? What do they look like? How who can help me with that? You know all that kind of stuff is stuff that I help with as well as of course growth opportunities for designers basically just coaching and mentoring designers internally as a vendor. Those are things that I’ve kind of spent last.
Oh, it does support my mentoring. But I also do essentially design mentoring and Advising organizations that are like what should my design team look like. How should it be structured? When should I hire a junior designer are leveling guides important? What do they look like? How who can help me with that? You know all that kind of stuff is stuff that I help with as well as of course growth opportunities for designers basically just coaching and mentoring designers internally as a vendor. Those are things that I’ve kind of spent last.
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Probably three months prototyping and so that’s going to launch all pretty soon after rigor and my own personal site which has if you go to it today, it would it would like lead you to like a password-protected thing, but it will be launched probably. I’m hoping soon by the time this launch is so you said maybe February I don’t know but we’ll see but look for that and then the other things I would also say is there are a couple good post and I’ll send you the links so you don’t have to dig for them. But for a couple good posts out there about kind of the state of design the state of our
Probably three months prototyping and so that’s going to launch all pretty soon after rigor and my own personal site which has if you go to it today, it would it would like lead you to like a password-protected thing, but it will be launched probably. I’m hoping soon by the time this launch is so you said maybe February I don’t know but we’ll see but look for that and then the other things I would also say is there are a couple good post and I’ll send you the links so you don’t have to dig for them. But for a couple good posts out there about kind of the state of design the state of our
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tree where things are at. I thought this might be helpful for people kind of as we enter the end of the year the start of the next year. I know people are going to be hearing this like kind of after the fact that these are what I always have felt like the Indie years summary should really be like, they just kind of provide a little bit more perspective on some of the things that really matter in our field versus some of the things that really just we’re all tired of talking about they don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Well, I’ll look forward to that too. And we get those links and into your new site to and knock on wood that it
tree where things are at. I thought this might be helpful for people kind of as we enter the end of the year the start of the next year. I know people are going to be hearing this like kind of after the fact that these are what I always have felt like the Indie years summary should really be like, they just kind of provide a little bit more perspective on some of the things that really matter in our field versus some of the things that really just we’re all tired of talking about they don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Well, I’ll look forward to that too. And we get those links and into your new site to and knock on wood that it
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That it’s also alive when we get this episode out. We’ll have links to all that stuff in the show notes. So for those of you listening just go ahead and head over to our site where the where this episode posted. You will check those things out. Otherwise, you know, I just want to say thank you again Nick for taking the time jumping on here having a great conversation with me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it’s been great. Thanks. And for all those have been listening. Thanks for listening to my Babble for so many years. If you follow me on Twitter and other things also appreciate you tuning in to this podcast, and I know some folks had posted on Twitter or some questions.
That it’s also alive when we get this episode out. We’ll have links to all that stuff in the show notes. So for those of you listening just go ahead and head over to our site where the where this episode posted. You will check those things out. Otherwise, you know, I just want to say thank you again Nick for taking the time jumping on here having a great conversation with me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it’s been great. Thanks. And for all those have been listening. Thanks for listening to my Babble for so many years. If you follow me on Twitter and other things also appreciate you tuning in to this podcast, and I know some folks had posted on Twitter or some questions.
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I will get back to you guys on Twitter for the sake of time. But yeah, thanks for having me. It’s been great. I’ve liked our conversation. It was a good fun exploration into all the things that I’ve been doing lately. Basically cool. We enjoyed having you and that’s going to be it for this episode. We will see you next time. This podcast is brought to you by Aurelius the research and insights tool that helps you analyze search and share all your research in one place so you can go from data to insights to action faster and easier check out Aurelius.
I will get back to you guys on Twitter for the sake of time. But yeah, thanks for having me. It’s been great. I’ve liked our conversation. It was a good fun exploration into all the things that I’ve been doing lately. Basically cool. We enjoyed having you and that’s going to be it for this episode. We will see you next time. This podcast is brought to you by Aurelius the research and insights tool that helps you analyze search and share all your research in one place so you can go from data to insights to action faster and easier check out Aurelius.
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Yourself with a 30-day trial by going to Aurelius lab.com. That’s a you re Liu es el a b.com. If you enjoyed this episode it would mean a lot. If you would give us a review on iTunes let others know what you think. You can catch all-new episodes of the Aurelius podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts like iTunes Spotify and more stay up to date when new episodes come out by signing up for email updates on our website.
Yourself with a 30-day trial by going to Aurelius lab.com. That’s a you re Liu es el a b.com. If you enjoyed this episode it would mean a lot. If you would give us a review on iTunes let others know what you think. You can catch all-new episodes of the Aurelius podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts like iTunes Spotify and more stay up to date when new episodes come out by signing up for email updates on our website.
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